Two-line slab reefing is the way to go if you want to lead the lines back to the cockpit. Otherwise, put a reefing line up for the clew reefing cringle on each reef point and then use a tack hook for the reefing tack cringle.

Add a set of lazyjacks, and you're good to go.

Pineapple Sails has a good page on two-line reefing systems, located here.

 

you might want to read this tread, it worked this subject over pretty well.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36751&highlight=reefing

 

Mainsail Reefing

Two line reefing with Dutchman.

 

Yes, two line is the way to go. Simple, reliable, less line to haul, less friction, great sail shape control, cheap, allows different boom angles for heavy air vs normal, in other words everything you want out of reefing system. While single line seems like a great idea, there is a lot more line to haul, a lot more friction and heavier loads to deal with. One important tip is to mark the main halyard at its proper position. If you do you can simply release the halyard to its mark and pull in the tack line by hand without even needing a winch. Then all youy need to do is pull in the clew line which does very much require a winch near the end of its tensioning.

Jeff

 

single line reefing

Selden single line reefing apparently works well. They use internal sliding blocks to even out tension.

 

PetMac-

You might want to read the webpage I posted a link to above at Pineapple sails about why two-line reefing is a better idea...

 

I didn't think the Selden worked well at all. I was amazed at the amount of effort required and also could not get the clew tension right at all. One of the big problems with the single line systems is that they have a lot of friction and while you normally have almost no tension on the tack line until it is almost completely tensioned, with single line reefing system, you have the tension from the clew while you are tensioning both the clew and the tack. Also on a typical system the clew line has a 2:1 with most single-line systems the way the system works in the boom, you only have a 1:1 load making the work much harder.

In my opinion there nothing simple or easy about single line systems. Even the Harken guys told me they think that single line systems are way over sold.

Respectfully,
Jeff

 

Good gouge!

Very informative, and the Pineapple Sail's narrative is compelling.

I've no personal experience with two-line reefing, and have been content (perhaps in my ignorance) with jiffy reefing.

Quick questions:
= What would be involved in replacing jiffy reefing with two-line?
= Are the advantages of two-line reefing such that it makes sense to undertake the project?

 

= What would be involved in replacing jiffy reefing with two-line?

Basically, you need to add a line to go through the tack reefing cringle to replace the reefing hook normally used in slab or jiffy reefing. If you're doing this to lead the reefing lines aft to the cockpit, you'll need mast foot blocks or turning blocks and some line clutches. If you're not doing this to lead the lines aft to the cockpit, why are you bothering??????

= Are the advantages of two-line reefing such that it makes sense to undertake the project?

The major advantage of any line-based reefing system is that it allows you to reef from the safety of the cockpit, but you do need to have the reefing lines, the mainsail halyard and the topping lift all brought back to the cockpit at a minimum. I'd also recommend leading the outhaul back to the cockpit if you're going to be doing this.

Two-line reefing allows you to reef more quickly IMHO, gives you far better control over sail shape and helps protect the sail from damage that may occur if the tack is insufficiently tensioned, which can happen in a single-line reefing system. Also, the amount of line in the cockpit is generally a bit more manageable, since the lines are a bit shorter than are involved in a single-line reefing setup.

 

Selden is 2:1. I've never used one,but I have spoken to people who have them and like them. I like the idea of not having to go to the mast.
Sailingdog,thanks for the Pineapple Sails link.Interesting.

 

Look here also

CLICK

 

Many thanks, Giu!

 

A couple quick points,

Two line reefing is a variant on a what is colloquially referred to as "jiffy reefing" or "slab reefing" which is also simply a variant of traditional reefing methods that have been around for centuries. The distinction between a two line system and any garden variety slab or jiffy reefing system is that there is a reef tack penant that tensions the luff where as a jiffy or slab may and often does involve a reef hook at the gooseneck that requires that you hook the reef tack kringle onto that hook while reefing.

Petmac: I don't think the Seldon is 2:1. There is a 2:1 mech advantage where the line passes through the sail, but that passes through a toggle in the boom that is 1:2 resulting in a 1:1 mechanical advantage. I have used the Selden on a couple occasions and have also used Harken single line systems on a couple occasions. Pineapples article is very consistent with what my experience and compared to the run of the mill two line system, Selden's system was very high effort and you ended up overhauling a bunch of line under a lot of load.

Also with a two line system, the whole concept of the second line is that you don't have to go to the mast since both lines and the halyard are typically run back to the cockpit.

Jeff

 

The distinction between a two line system and any garden variety slab or jiffy reefing system is that there is a reef tack penant that tensions the luff where as a jiffy or slab may and often does involve a reef hook at the gooseneck that requires that you hook the reef tack kringle onto that hook while reefing...Jeff

JeffH,

Aside from the ability to avoid going forward to the mast, do you see any other advantage (e.g. sail shape) to securing the tack down with a line rather than just using the reef hook at the gooseneck?

 

My experience with trying to wrestle the kringle onto the reef hook in heavy air has always left me concerned about injuring a finger or spearing the sail with the hook. Also you have to over-slacken the halyard in order to get the kringle on the reef hook so you add one more step of re-tensioning the halyard. I have also had the experience of placing the kringle on the hook only to have it jump free before I could tension the halyard.
Jeff

 

My experience with trying to wrestle the kringle onto the reef hook in heavy air has always left me concerned about injuring a finger or spearing the sail with the hook. Also you have to over-slacken the halyard in order to get the kringle on the reef hook so you add one more step of re-tensioning the halyard. I have also had the experience of placing the kringle on the hook only to have it jump free before I could tension the halyard. Jeff

All true enough, and similar to my experience.

I asked because we have a new mainsail on order and although I stuck with the old jiffy reefing system (single line to clew cringle and reef hooks at gooseneck), we are going to add a piece of webbing and rings at the tack cringle to make it easier to affix to the reef hooks. (We're also adding a third reef point which won't get much use on the bay but which I may rig with the two-line system for eventual off-shore sailing.) Thanks.

 

Jeff & Dog,

Thanks -- you guys must have been reading my mind!

 

Can't be... I don't have an electron microscope. Glad to help Porfin.

 

Getting back to reefing for a moment . . .

I recall having this discussion before but can't remember if it was on this forum.

I had a great single-line system on a previous boat and unfortunately can't use it on my present one without changing my boom. I can't sketch-n-scan now because I don't have the gear on my boat so I'll try and describe it.

Inside the boom is a double-ended pulley block.

A line is secured to the end of the boom, runs inside the boom to the block, around the rear pulley and back to the end of the boom, through the sheave, up to the reefing cringle and back down to the boom.

Another line is run from the gooseneck up through the luff cringle and down through an upper sheave, into the boom, around the front pulley on the block, back to the front of the boom, through a lower sheave and then on through the deck organisers to the cockpit.

It sounds complicated but if you sketch it as you go, it all makes sense.

How it works: When you haul on the line in the cockpit the following happens:

• the line hauls the luff cringle down onto the gooseneck
• it simultaneously hauls the block in the boom forward
• the block hauls down on the leech cringle bringing that down at the same rate.
• the block provides a balance of effort between luff and leech and the sail comes down flat which is good for the stackpack or to stow the bunt if you wish (have to leave the cockpit for this)
• the block provides a 2 - 1 purchase which enables one to easily get the luff tight and the leech/foot nice and taught.

Why don't I use this system now? My boom section is too small to accommodate 3 blocks and it doesn't have upper sheaves at the gooseneck end. As soon as I get some spare cash I will have a new boom made because this system is so effective and powerful, anybody can easily reef even in really tough conditions without help and without leaving the cockpit (assuming that the halyards also come back to the cockpit).

If anybody is interested, I will sketch-n-scan the system as soon as I get back to the office and post it here.

Andre

 

Andre-

While I'd like to see a drawing of the system to better understand how it works, I don't see it avoiding the problems of a single line reefing system. Specifically, I don't see how this allows you to properly tension the clew reefing cringle, before starting to apply tension along the reef's foot.

Also, this sounds like it will have the same or worse friction-related problems associated with a single-line reefing system. It also doesn't seem to avoid the excessive length of line required for reefing with a single line system from what I can see from your description.

I recall having this discussion before but can't remember if it was on this forum.

I had a great single-line system on a previous boat and unfortunately can't use it on my present one without changing my boom. I can't sketch-n-scan now because I don't have the gear on my boat so I'll try and describe it.

Inside the boom is a double-ended pulley block.

A line is secured to the end of the boom, runs inside the boom to the block, around the rear pulley and back to the end of the boom, through the sheave, up to the reefing cringle and back down to the boom.

Another line is run from the gooseneck up through the luff cringle and down through an upper sheave, into the boom, around the front pulley on the block, back to the front of the boom, through a lower sheave and then on through the deck organisers to the cockpit.

It sounds complicated but if you sketch it as you go, it all makes sense.

How it works: When you haul on the line in the cockpit the following happens:

• the line hauls the luff cringle down onto the gooseneck
• it simultaneously hauls the block in the boom forward
• the block hauls down on the leech cringle bringing that down at the same rate.
• the block provides a balance of effort between luff and leech and the sail comes down flat which is good for the stackpack or to stow the bunt if you wish (have to leave the cockpit for this)
• the block provides a 2 - 1 purchase which enables one to easily get the luff tight and the leech/foot nice and taught.

Why don't I use this system now? My boom section is too small to accommodate 3 blocks and it doesn't have upper sheaves at the gooseneck end. As soon as I get some spare cash I will have a new boom made because this system is so effective and powerful, anybody can easily reef even in really tough conditions without help and without leaving the cockpit (assuming that the halyards also come back to the cockpit).

If anybody is interested, I will sketch-n-scan the system as soon as I get back to the office and post it here.

Andre

 

Andre,

If it's not too much trouble I'd appreciate seeing a sketch whenever you have a chance. Thanks.

 

Jeff H From Selden site :

"A system of guided blocks inside the boom ensures that the lines do not tangle. The system has a 2:1 gear ratio,making reefing fast and simple,without having to leave the cockpit". Online cataloque page 72.

 

Sorry I took so long

to post this sketch but I couldn't get round to the drawing at the office. Did it here on the boat with MS Paint (what a mission!!). This is more or less what it looks like:

So, looking at the sketch, the line at the bottom goes to the cockpit. When it is hauled in, it hauls the tack down to the goose neck. This obviates the need to go to the mast to hook the cringle onto a horn. At the same time the pulley block inside the boom moves forward.

When the block moves forward it hauls down on the clew. The anchor on the boom at the end of the rear line must be aft of the reefing cringle so that as the line goes tight it automatically tensions the foot.

When I used the system we had marks on the main halyard (which also came back to the cockpit) so that we could let it down just enough to get the reef in tight then re-tension the luff on the halyard.

The blocks on my boat never had any special guides or anything, they just lay in the boom, never gave us any trouble. We had lazy jacks to manage the bunt.

SD to answer your concerns about friction, no there is no excessive friction largely because of the three sheaves where the line changes direction. The system works pretty smoothly. The problem is that most booms will not accommodate more than two pulley blocks without becoming cluttered. So if you three reefing points the third could be a problem.

When I change my boom I intend to get one big enough to fit three blocks because having the 3rd reef on a different system is a ball-ache and you only need a 3rd reef when it's unsafe to go on deck.

Hope this helps.

Andre

 

When I change my boom I intend to get one big enough to fit three blocks because having the 3rd reef on a different system is a ball-ache and you only need a 3rd reef when it's unsafe to go on deck.

Hope this helps.

Andre

Andre, thanks for the sketch.

As for the 3rd reef, to avoid getting a new boom, you might consider going with conventional slab reefing for the first reef. First reef conditions usually aren't very daunting, and going forward to the mast generally isn't a big deal. Then you can set up the 2nd and 3rd reefs for the single line system that can be handled entirely from the cockpit.

 

Andre-

I don't see that system, as good as it may be, not having the problems of any single-line reefing system.

In fact, IMHO, it'll be a bit worse than a single line reefing system, since it effectively has a two-to-one purchase built into it, and means you'll have an even longer line coming into the cockpit than you would have had on a normal single-reefing line system. Also, if the proportions are correct on your drawing, it will tension the clew reefing cringle before the tack reefing cringle is tight, possibly leading to sail damage.

Finally, if I understand what you wrote correctly, the blocks are actually internal to the boom. That makes the system very difficult to inspect or repair. Also, if it jams, you may have to open the boom up to fix it.

 

In fact, IMHO, it'll be a bit worse than a single line reefing system, since it effectively has a two-to-one purchase built into it, and means you'll have an even longer line coming into the cockpit than you would have had on a normal single-reefing line system.

The line coming into the cockpit is as long as the front line inside the boom plus that going up to the cringle x 2. If you prefer going up on deck to reef and fighting to get the cringle onto the gooseneck horn (especially the second or third one), then the line is definitely too long.

Also, if the proportions are correct on your drawing, it will tension the clew reefing cringle before the tack reefing cringle is tight, possibly leading to sail damage.

IMPORTANT NOTICE TO MEMBERS: Please do not use my sketch to determine optimum rope lengths.

If I had known you wanted a scale drawing I would have done it on CAD this is a sketch done on MSPaint fercrisake.

Finally, if I understand what you wrote correctly, the blocks are actually internal to the boom. That makes the system very difficult to inspect or repair. Also, if it jams, you may have to open the boom up to fix it.

Yes they are internal to the boom. External would require a whole lot more maintence. When there is a need to inspect/maintain any of the tackle in the boom, it is simply pulled to the stern end of the boom and taken out (depending on the design of the boom of course). You have miles of line in the cockpit to work with, remember . If you want to avoid this, just stick a video camera down the boom . The only repetitive wear that we experienced was those parts of the lines that passed through the cringles (normal) and the knots at the end of the boom. When a line looks ready to be replaced (don't leave it until it's shagged) then just reeve the new line in using the old one.

You can make it complicated if you really want to but it's not mandatory.

Andre

 

Since this does involve ease of reefing - I have a related question.

I have a 2 line system on my boat, which works well, on my 1st set of reef points - Can do everything from the cockpit.

However, my main has a "bolt rope" (not sure if that is the correct term), that attaches the bottom half dozen luff lugs, to the sail - instead of them being directly sewn / attached to the sail, as the top ones are).

In order to put in a 2nd reef, I have to either undo the rope, to let it slide out of the bottom slugs, or take out the screw that holds the slugs form falling down / out of the mast track, when there is no upward tension.

1. Can someone enlighten me, as to the best way to deal with this system?
2. If I get a new main, in the next couple of years, can I get one without a "boltrope", perhaps using shortet lugs, so that they all fit in the track, even when the sail is pulled lower, as in a 2nd reef point?

Thanks!!

 

Good question, I actually have the same problem but usually get away with a single reef and don't need to get to the second.

Anyone have a work-around for this? Basically we can't get our mains to drop low enough to be 2x reefed.

 

Not sure this will come out but - see the base of my main?

That line stops the sail from sliding completely down

 

Northeaster-

I think your talking about the line that is attached to the lowest sail slugs and is there to allow the sail to fold and be reefed. If you didn't have the slugs on that line, it wouldn't be possible to reef the sail in most cases. It is called a jackline IIRC, not to be confused with the jacklines that keep you on the boat via your tether...

You shouldn't have to remove the sail gate or sail track stop to put in a second reef. Do you have photos of the mainsail and mast area when you have the sail lowered for a second reef. If not, can you take a couple and post them. It sounds like the slug gate or track stop is either in the wrong position or the sail wasn't made correctly.

 

SD - My last (and 1st boat) didn't have this rope. I can put in the 1st reef without having a problem. However, when trying to pull the sail down farther, to bring down the 2nd luff reef point, the rope, which passes through a half dozen sail lugs, becomes taught, and prohibits the sail form coming down enough. This happens as the lugs start to pile up in the track, and as the bottom of the sail is folded over, the rope becomes taught.
The only time I had to put a 2nd reef in, was obviously under bad conditions, so I just undid the knot on the rope, so it would slide freely though several lugs, giving it enough slack to allow the sail to come down further.

Sorry, I don't have any pics that are detailed enough to show it. The sail is original.
I am hoping someone else has this setup, and can offer some insight.

 

Here is a link to a similar "jackline" setup - Thanks SD, for the proper term!

Google Image Result for http://www.blumhorst.com/potterpages/Photopoint/mastgates-jacklines/MainsailJackline.jpg

It says the jackline makes it easy to reef, by allowing the luff to fall away from the sail slugs - what it doesn't mention, is that as the slugs pile up, the rope becomes taught, and the sail can't come down anymore!!

 

At least with my sail, even though the slugs have piled up, the jackline lets me bring the reefing cringle down to the tack hook. If yours doesn't allow that, something is either wrong with the setup or was modified since the boat was originally setup. On a friend's boat, they had the same problem, but when we looked at sister boat's mainsail and mast, it was pretty clear that the PO of her boat had swapped out the sail slugs for much longer ones...and that was the cause of the trouble. Something similar could be the case on your boat.

Here is a link to a similar "jackline" setup - Thanks SD, for the proper term!

Google Image Result for http://www.blumhorst.com/potterpages/Photopoint/mastgates-jacklines/MainsailJackline.jpg

It says the jackline makes it easy to reef, by allowing the luff to fall away from the sail slugs - what it doesn't mention, is that as the slugs pile up, the rope becomes taught, and the sail can't come down anymore!!

 

another link to a mainsail jackline photo!

Catalina Direct: Mainsail Jack Line