Small Marine Generator? - Page 3 - SailNet Community
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post #21 of 33 Old 03-03-2012 Thread Starter
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A question!

If you have an AC charger they will charge your batteries through the boat 220V charger that is normally a 50 to 80A charger.

If you get a DC direct charger they will charge directly your batteries with 12V with an Amperage that can go from 100 to 200A.

Any problem in charging the batteries with a superior Amperage?
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post #22 of 33 Old 03-03-2012
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My plan (such as it is)...

So, I've always had factory installed generators on boats and never worried about power consumption, but this time I've opted not ($16,000 option).

My plan is to add battery storage capacity, if necessary and perhaps occasionally carry my home Honda portable on longer trips for the occasional daytime boost if I'm lucky enough to not need the auxillary for days on end.

Since I'll be primarly sailing the Chesapeake, I could always spend a night in a marina if I really need to replenish or if the crew absolutely needs A/C.

Make sense for my intended use?
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post #23 of 33 Old 03-03-2012 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BCC1 View Post
My plan (such as it is)...

So, I've always had factory installed generators on boats and never worried about power consumption, but this time I've opted not ($16,000 option).

My plan is to add battery storage capacity, if necessary and perhaps occasionally carry my home Honda portable on longer trips for the occasional daytime boost if I'm lucky enough to not need the auxillary for days on end.

Since I'll be primarly sailing the Chesapeake, I could always spend a night in a marina if I really need to replenish or if the crew absolutely needs A/C.

Make sense for my intended use?
Not the portable generator. They are very dangerous in a boat.

If you want to have autonomy and stay for more than 2 or 3 days out of marinas the best solution is to add the batteries you have space for (probably 4 in all) and get the second alternator option in your engine.

The Yanmar 3JH5E come standard with a 80A alternator but as an option for a second alternator mounted on the engine ( 80 or 130A).

With 210A charging you will only need to run the engine for an hour a day, or less, depending on your consumption, to have the batteries charged.

Get that second alternator and make sure they leave space for it. It is the easiest and less expensive solution, assuming you are not using air conditioned. If you are you need a generator.

Take a look a look at the file of your engine. In small letters in the end you have the options.

http://us.yanmar.com/media/ext/uploa...E_Brochure.pdf


Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 03-03-2012 at 09:15 AM.
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post #24 of 33 Old 03-03-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Not the portable generator. They are very dangerous in a boat.

If you want to have autonomy and stay for more than 2 or 3 days out of marinas the best solution is to add the batteries you have space for (probably 4 in all) and get the second alternator option in your engine.

The Yanmar 3JH5E come standard with a 80A alternator but as an option for a second alternator mounted on the engine ( 80 or 130A).

With 210A charging you will only need to run the engine for an hour a day, or less, depending on your consumption, to have the batteries charged.

Get that second alternator and make sure they leave space for it. It is the easiest and less expensive solution, assuming you are not using air conditioned. If you are you need a generator.

Take a look a look at the file of your engine. In small letters in the end you have the options.

http://us.yanmar.com/media/ext/uploa...E_Brochure.pdf


Regards

Paulo
Paulo,

Thanks for responding and sorry for the thread hijack. I appreciate and will take your advice.

BCC
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post #25 of 33 Old 03-03-2012
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I've seen these little guys at a shop in Seattle and at the boat show. The look very slick and are VERY small. They make AC and DC marine generators.

Fischer Panda Diesel Marine Generators

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P.S. Please take care to insulate and soundproof it as much as possible and don't run it in the early AM or during/after cocktail hour. You're a Sailnetter, and I don't want to hate you.

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post #26 of 33 Old 03-03-2012
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Here is another: "Mastervolt Generators."

Sure Marine (There is a link on their home page)

Sure Marine is a great company to deal with BTW. Friendly, knowledgeable, dependable etc. Highly recommended shop.

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post #27 of 33 Old 03-03-2012 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MedSailor View Post
I've seen these little guys at a shop in Seattle and at the boat show. The look very slick and are VERY small. They make AC and DC marine generators.

Fischer Panda Diesel Marine Generators

MedSailor

..
The DC one is too big for me...and the prices are just too high, even if I don't have doubts about their quality. They have probably the best small generators and that's why they are dominating the European market, with those prices and all.

The smallest one is an AC generator (4000s) with the right size but it cost 5858€ plus 23% VAT and you have to consider price of install.

The first DC generator (too big) is the AGT 4000 and it cost 8354€ plus 23% VAT more installation costs.

For DC energy, using the same engine Panduro is not so expensive but on that size the only one I found with DC energy is a HFL one (same engine). I am waiting for their price.

Regards

Paulo
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post #28 of 33 Old 03-03-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
A question!

If you have an AC charger they will charge your batteries through the boat 220V charger that is normally a 50 to 80A charger.

If you get a DC direct charger they will charge directly your batteries with 12V with an Amperage that can go from 100 to 200A.

Any problem in charging the batteries with a superior Amperage?
Paulo.. somewhere on this site there are some excellent posts by Mainesail, Bill T and others about what batteries can accept and how much amperage you can try to 'push' into them. There are definite limits, I believe and they vary with battery type and condition (AGM vs Flooded, etc)

I suspect few will accept the upper range of what you're asking about..

Here's one I found that may address your question.. read a few posts down..

Battery Equalization Amperage

Ron

1984 Fast/Nicholson 345 "FastForward"

".. there is much you could do at sea with common sense.. and very little you could do without it.."
Capt G E Ericson (from "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monsarrat)

Last edited by Faster; 03-03-2012 at 12:31 PM.
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post #29 of 33 Old 03-03-2012
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Paulo.. somewhere on this site there are some excellent posts by Mainesail, Bill T and others about what batteries can accept and how much amperage you can try to 'push' into them. There are definite limits, I believe and they vary with battery type and condition (AGM vs Flooded, etc)

I suspect few will accept the upper range of what you're asking about..

Here's one I found that may address your question.. read a few posts down..

Battery Equalization Amperage
Thanks for the tip Faster. The wisdom of MainSail is here:

Battery Acceptance Observations - SailboatOwners.com

MedSailor
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post #30 of 33 Old 03-03-2012 Thread Starter
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Thanks Faster and Med sailor. That was just the information I wanted, via Mainsail. But Faster I have no doubt that a second alternator can give a faster charge if the batteries can handle it. On my previous boat I had two alternators and I was complaining to the guys from Bavaria that there should be some problem with my 220 charger because the engine could charge the batteries in almost half the time.

They checked it, saw the amperage and say that it was normal. I had an 340 Amp bank and according with those 20% of the total capacity for the size of the alternator it should not happen, since that gives a 64A alternator and that should be about the amperage of the 220 charger (maybe 50A) and about the size of the engine alternator (maybe also 50 A).

Now if we consider what Bamar says regarding the size of the alternator, 20% to 40% of the total bank amperage, then 20% is just a minimal value and that explains Why I had much better results with the two alternators (maybe a total of 110 A), about 30% of the battery bank.

There is also another important thing to consider: on a Alternator the stated amperage is only produced at the operating RPM. So if you go at cruising speed you will get close to the given Amp, but if you are at anchor running the engine a bit up idle (1200/1300RPM) to charge batteries you are only getting half of that if that much.

If the objective is charging a 4X120A bank of batteries at 1200rpm (while at anchor) than you need 20% x 2 of the total battery bank. For 480A that is a 192 Amp alternator, or 240 alternator if we consider 25%.

In what concerns using a dedicated DC generator the problem of operating RPM is not there because it can be run at operating speed with not much noise and little fuel waste.

Some can even vary speed regarding the needed charge and cut off and connect themselves when needed:

"The new DC alternative from HFL is based on a regulation system
whereby the operation of the diesel charger is automatically controlled by the state of the battery.

Whenever 12 or 24v consumers are used the battery voltage will drop dramatically. Once the batteries have reached a preset voltage, the diesel charger will automatically cut in, replenishing the batteries up to 14v or 28v respectively, then switch off again automatically.

A DC generator is capable of providing output via its alternator over a wide set of operating conditions, with the engine speed being variable offering fuel economy and lower service requirements."


http://www.sailnet.com/forums/newrep...ote=1&p=839671

A typical small generator will waste also much less diesel than the alternators run by the engine, maybe 3 times less.

Thanks to Mainsail numbers I can now calculate what I need in what regardes the power of a DC generator for my boat that has a 400 Amp battery bank : considering 80% efficiency and considering 25% of the size of the bank it will give 125 Amp.

Bottom point, that is about the power small DC generators provide in amperage. I guess that the ones that are doing them know what they are doing

D.C. Traveller | HFL

But if I was getting that juice from alternators connected to the boat engine, while at anchor, I would need to get the same (considering half efficiency at slow RPM), a 200 to 250 Amp alternator, I mean to get max efficiency on the battery charging, assuming the boat engine a bit over idle. That's is also why boat engine manufacturers provide a second alternator that with the first can produce that kind of juice, I mean, in the case of the 40 hp Yanmar, 210A.

Nice to know that the guys on Yanmar also know what they are doing

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 03-03-2012 at 02:42 PM.
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